Description

Main requirement is a check mark symbol: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=407141

Design preview (focused left, normal right):

Since the radio button shares overall design concept with checkbox, it should also use the new style.

Part of T10891.

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Openngraham
Openmglb
mglb created this task.May 27 2019, 8:05 PM
mglb updated the task description. (Show Details)
mglb updated the task description. (Show Details)May 27 2019, 8:08 PM
ndavis added a subscriber: ndavis.May 27 2019, 8:46 PM

This looks really nice.

Agreed! Quite lovely.

The "Indeterminate" state is most often represented by a square. Maybe we should do the same? That being said I didn't find a location where this state is actually used.
I felt like the check mark might be a bit small so I made a bigger version as a test. I think I like it better this way but yours looks good already.

The "Indeterminate" state is most often represented by a square. Maybe we should do the same? That being said I didn't find a location where this state is actually used.
I felt like the check mark might be a bit small so I made a bigger version as a test. I think I like it better this way but yours looks good already.

I feel like the square is too similar to the current checked state and users would get confused by it. Even new users might get confused because of screenshots containing the current checkbox design.

I do think a slightly larger checkmark is good.

+1, I kind of like the use of an ellipsis to denote an mixed state checkbox. These should be super rare anyway.

So would we also be updating the radio buttons to have a black circle in the middle of the selected button instead of a blue circle?

mglb added a comment.EditedMay 29 2019, 9:04 AM

The "Indeterminate" state is most often represented by a square. Maybe we should do the same? That being said I didn't find a location where this state is actually used.

I saw square in Windows and Qt Fusion theme, and horizontal line in everything else. Square is not an option for reason mentioned by @ndavis.
I went with ellipsis as the state (in most cases) represents exactly what ellipsis represents in written text (especially in UI) - ommited text/details. The use case I'm talking about:

Install:
[v] Plasma
[…] Applications
[ ] Dolphin
[v] Konsole

It is also visually similar to horizontal line, so macOS and web apps users should recognize it instantly.

I felt like the check mark might be a bit small so I made a bigger version as a test. I think I like it better this way but yours looks good already.

+1

+1, I kind of like the use of an ellipsis to denote an mixed state checkbox. These should be super rare anyway.

So would we also be updating the radio buttons to have a black circle in the middle of the selected button instead of a blue circle?

I think so - I'm not a fan of Plasma Blue details on white background (neither is WCAG).

felixernst added a comment.EditedMay 29 2019, 9:15 AM

Ellipsis seems to be the best option then. Thanks for convincing me!

So would we also be updating the radio buttons to have a black circle in the middle of the selected button instead of a blue circle?

I think it would look out of place if we didn't.

+1 for using a checkmark instead of a sqare. (Although I like the animation of folding and unfolding the sqare.)
-1 for using ... for tristate/indeterminate. That looks like the checkbox will open a dialog (https://hig.kde.org/style/writing/labels.html?highlight=ellipsis). If looking fast, it even looks like a hamburger button, which will open a menu. At least, it looks more like a pushbutton than a checkbox.

ngraham added a comment.EditedJun 7 2019, 4:19 PM

-1 for using ... for tristate/indeterminate. That looks like the checkbox will open a dialog (https://hig.kde.org/style/writing/labels.html?highlight=ellipsis). If looking fast, it even looks like a hamburger button, which will open a menu. At least, it looks more like a pushbutton than a checkbox.

Hmm, that's a good point.

FWIW Apple uses a minus sign in the checkbox to indicate tristate, while Windows uses a square. I'm not a huge fan of the square since it looks like the "checked" state. This would be especially true of ours since we already somewhat confusingly use a square for the checked state.

filipf added a subscriber: filipf.Jun 7 2019, 10:50 PM
davidre added a subscriber: davidre.Jun 9 2019, 8:39 AM

Maybe something to consider:

I strongly disagree with the checkmark being made look like a checkmark, since that exact same sign is the Finnish traditional “incorrect” sign that teachers use in school :p I’ve always tried to find widget styles that use either cross (×) or something else.

Wikipedia lists a few more countries where it is used with a negative meaning

The check mark is a predominant affirmative symbol of convenience in the English-speaking world because of its instant and simple composition. In other countries, however, the mark is more complicated.
It is common in Swedish schools for a ✓ to indicate that an answer is incorrect, while "R", from the Swedish rätt, i.e., "correct", is used to indicate that an answer is correct.[citation needed]
In Finnish, ✓ stands for väärin, i.e., "wrong", due to its similarity to a slanted v. The opposite, "correct", is marked with ⋅ / ⋅ {\displaystyle \cdot \!/\!\cdot } \cdot \!/\!\cdot , a slanted vertical line emphasized with two dots.
In Japan and Korea, the O mark (marujirushi) is used instead of the check mark, and the X or ✓ mark are commonly used for wrong.

Yeah, I had no idea! Maybe we should actually make the symbol respond to the current locale and handle those kinds of regional differences.

the current locale

You don’t mean QLocale? That’s why dolphin shows swedish weekdays only just because I set the date format to ISO 8601, or did someone fix that?

If it works, we could let the user choose whether to use the current sqares, checkmarks, or crosses. Oxygen had that option too.

the current locale

You don’t mean QLocale? That’s why dolphin shows swedish weekdays only just because I set the date format to ISO 8601, or did someone fix that?

If it works, we could let the user choose whether to use the current sqares, checkmarks, or crosses. Oxygen had that option too.

I think it makes much more sense to have this automatically set according to the locale (or language, or whatever makes the most sense) than making it user-configurable. Nobody would ever find it.

I think it makes much more sense to have this automatically set according to the locale (or language, or whatever makes the most sense) than making it user-configurable. Nobody would ever find it.

Okay, which is the locale setting for “Checkbox”? Just dictating which checkbox design the user has to like doesn’t sound good to me. Imagine your coworker has a design you like more and you can’t change it...

[...] making it user-configurable. Nobody would ever find it.

Sure? I would just say: Nobody who doesn’t care would ever find it.
KRunner “Widget Style” brings the Breeze configuration dialog. That one seems appropiate to me.

I think it makes much more sense to have this automatically set according to the locale (or language, or whatever makes the most sense) than making it user-configurable. Nobody would ever find it.

Okay, which is the locale setting for “Checkbox”? Just dictating which checkbox design the user has to like doesn’t sound good to me. Imagine your coworker has a design you like more and you can’t change it...

We can't make everything configurable, and configurability is never a substitute for good default behavior. What if I want the letter Z or an Emoji in my checkbox? Should we go out of our way to support those too? Let's not bikeshed this too much and derail the task.

We can't make everything configurable, and configurability is never a substitute for good default behavior. What if I want the letter Z or an Emoji in my checkbox? Should we go out of our way to support those too? Let's not bikeshed this too much and derail the task.

If it is already configurable trough a locale setting, why not explicitly?
[_] Override locale setting and use [Square V]
That’s all I wanted to say.

Sure, I think that would be fine. Allowing a reasonable/good default setting to be overridden seems acceptable.

mglb added a comment.Jun 10 2019, 5:50 PM

+1 for using a checkmark instead of a sqare. (Although I like the animation of folding and unfolding the sqare.)

Checkmark will be animated too :P

-1 for using ... for tristate/indeterminate. That looks like the checkbox will open a dialog (https://hig.kde.org/style/writing/labels.html?highlight=ellipsis). If looking fast, it even looks like a hamburger button, which will open a menu. At least, it looks more like a pushbutton than a checkbox.

You're right. However, in real life use case, indeterminate is used in one place - tree views. And everything there is a problem:

• square - mentioned before, it is used right now, so would be confusing for current users
• horizontal line - might be confused with a button for folding tree
• colored/transparent check mark - color-only differences are bad
• ellipsis - "open..."
• ⠴ - conceived while writing this note, intended meaning: "not all"/"something missing"

Any ideas?

Ellipsis:

Horizontal line:

"not all"/⠴:

Re check meaning around the world:
"Check mark" meaning does not always apply to check boxes. E.g. teachers in Poland use ✓/✗ or ✓/― or +/- as "correct"/"wrong", but in tests, forms and voting cards ✗ is almost always placed in a square as the choice marker.

Re customization:
System style can be easily changed to another one, so whats the point of detailed customization?

Re localization:
Checkbox symbol is not localized currently. And I would keep it that way:

• Most checkboxes (windows, macos, android, iphone) use check mark everywhere, so I guess this is what users know.
• There are 2 expected visual states - empty box or non-empty box. I guess everything would be OK, as long as it is not offensive and does not look as another control (especially radio button)
In T10997#187755, @mglb wrote:

[...] indeterminate is used in one place - tree views. And everything there is a problem:

• square - mentioned before, it is used right now, so would be confusing for current users
• horizontal line - might be confused with a button for folding tree
• colored/transparent check mark - color-only differences are bad
• ellipsis - "open..."
• ⠴ - conceived while writing this note, intended meaning: "not all"/"something missing"

Any ideas?

[...]

Re check meaning around the world: "Check mark" meaning does not always apply to check boxes. E.g. teachers in Poland use ✓/✗ or ✓/― or +/- as "correct"/"wrong", but in tests, forms and voting cards ✗ is almost always placed in a square as the choice marker.

[...]

I start to prefer these options again:

1. Keep the current style (Nothing, Triangle, Square)
2. These ugly on/off sliders, although strongy discouraged by Qt documentation.

I think we definitely need to make the checked state display a checkmark. We are the only ones who don't do this.

Looking at the options I find myself preferring the ellipses for the indeterminate state version. A square wouldn't be terrible either, though that would have the potential to be very slightly confusing to some of our current users since right now a square means checked. And yeah, everywhere a tri-state checkbox is used outside of a tree view is an error that we need to fix.

fbg13 added a subscriber: fbg13.Jun 12 2019, 7:32 AM

How about a rhombus for indeterminate state?

[ ~ ] Tile is sometimes used to show an approximate value. Could we use that for indeterminate state?

pettke added a subscriber: pettke.Jun 16 2019, 11:30 PM

I think the icon for an intermediate state should visually be like a fraction of the checked state. That would make it visually clear which state corresponds to more selected sub-items.
What I mean could be roughly described as: the intermediate state icon should not contain filled pixels where the checked state has none. And also the checked state icon should have more filled pixels in total than the intermediate one.

The current check box design meets this criterion as the intermediate state triangle is visually just a fraction of the checked state square.

A bad example would be the windows style, where a square that fills the whole box is used as the intermediate state. This looks like "more selection" than when a checkmark is shown, which only fills a fraction of the box.

A way to make a checkmark comply to this may be to tilt the "not all" icon to an angle as if it would be a checkmark with a few parts left out. (in general like a checkmark drawn with a dashed line)

Localized check/intermediate icons might lead to confusion for users who look at tutorials where a different locale is used.

When using checkmarks, I think it should be consistent to the checkmark icon used on OK-Buttons. In my opinion it would be nice in general if whatever icons get chosen, they are consistent to the rest of the breeze style/icons, e.g. regarding line thickness.
I don't know if this would be a concern, but where checkmarks are used, maybe they should also differentiate themselves sufficiently from nearby arrows of dropdown-menus or spinboxes etc.

mglb added a comment.Jul 13 2019, 8:23 PM

Will animations be OK?

A way to make a checkmark comply to this may be to tilt the "not all" icon to an angle as if it would be a checkmark with a few parts left out. (in general like a checkmark drawn with a dashed line)

I think the symbol is too small for dashed line:

I'll see how it works with a little larger check mark

In T10997#191697, @mglb wrote:

Will animations be OK?

Totally, that looks great!

In T10997#191697, @mglb wrote:

I think the symbol is too small for dashed line:

I'll see how it works with a little larger check mark

Another problem I see with the dotted line is that it looks more like it's saying the checkbox is disabled.

In T10997#187755, @mglb wrote:

Ellipsis:

Horizontal line:

"not all"/⠴:

Why checkboxes have two variants? Square and Round, maybe leave single? I really don't understand why two.
For example:

• on the left - all the squares.
• on the right - all the circles, but at the bottom 3 squares.

Well the square one are checkboxes they can be checked or unchecked, typicall yes/no choices.
The round ones are radio buttons at least two or more belong to the same group and only one of this group can be checked and uncheckes the others they are used here for example to switch between different behavior.

KonqiDragon added a comment.EditedMon, Jul 29, 8:31 AM
In T10997#191697, @mglb wrote:

I think the symbol is too small for dashed line:

I'll see how it works with a little larger check mark

Another problem I see with the dotted line is that it looks more like it's saying the checkbox is disabled.

In KDE 4 the checkboxes is similar.

GB_2 added a subscriber: GB_2.EditedTue, Jul 30, 9:21 AM

This is how it looks like in GTK4 and Material Design:

I think the minus is fine.

Let's not let this get killed off by bikeshedding. I'd like to see a patch and maybe we can keep arguing in there. For the record I'm fine with a minus as well as ellipsis.

mglb added a comment.Sun, Aug 11, 6:47 PM

The code (super dirty): https://cgit.kde.org/breeze.git/log/?h=mglb/checkbox-redesign
I managed to make good looking dot-line check mark for half-checked state.

I don't have access to a PC for some time. I hope I'll be available on weekends though.

In T10997#193429, @GB_2 wrote:

This is how it looks like in GTK4 and Material Design:

I think the minus is fine.

What about a real context on desktop ui where this state can appear - tree view? I saw material like usage on macos, but only tree view on windows and in Qt apps.

It can be mistaken with tree folding symbol.

I still think 3 horizontal dots is the best form of half checked state proposed here.

I still think 3 horizontal dots is the best form of half checked state proposed here.

I'm okay with that too.

In T10997#195105, @mglb wrote:

UI-wise, looks pretty good overall! I like how the focus effects are now consistent: focused == blue background; otherwise, there's no color involved.