I guess it's correct to begin to implement these features by starting with a basic rolling trim by the mouse.

In all video editing programs, the edit line (the cursor) as I shown you goes one frame beyond the last clip and the timeline monitor shows a black frame. In AVID, instead of the black frame, the latest frame is shown with a marker on it which tells you that you reached the end of the timeline.
The way the cursor is represented in Kdenlive is perfect: you have the vertical line and a horizontal white transparent area which show you which is the frame you are watching. In Premiere and FCP you have exactly the same representation (watch the pictures I attached to this post: https://phabricator.kde.org/T1961#32751)
When you set the Out or the In point on the timeline for selecting a zone (for all purposes: rendering or Insert/Extract/Overwrite/Lift) it's placed where the line is. That means that is set at the beginning of the frame selection. (This logic works also correctly when you are at the begin of a clip or of the timeline)
So if you set your cursor one frame beyond the latest frame and you set an Out point the timeline zone selected doesn't contain the black frame.

After today fast test I found that now we have a different Timeline end point issue.
Now when you are on the latest frame on the timeline and you insert a clip, the new clip is added after the clip which was already on the timeline. But if you want just insert your clip one frame before the end you can't. If you move the edit line one frame back and you insert a new clip, Kdenlive will insert it not one frame before the end of the latest clip on the timeline but 2 frame before the end, as it did before the fix.
Actually you can't insert a clip just one frame before the end.
Or you perform the operation after the end of the clipo or 2 frames before the end. You can't just select to insert one frame before the end.
I think that the fact that other softwares (as I shown you in the picture I attached here yesterday) set the edit line end point on the first frame after the end of the clip is for avoiding this malfunction.

I wrote this before to open the new phaìbricator topic about out of sync frames reference because this night I got a suggestion:
Is there a way to create a different approach for linking together video and audio from the same clip before to move them?
If it's possible we can keep the standard way to groups clip just for the "create group" operation and set another way, for video clips which contain audio, which doesn't prevent the audio/video offset but which is able to keep infos about it.

I agree at 127%.
for these points I just want to add this:
2 - I'm not of the opinion we have to delete any "mixed"or "strict" mode. Maybe I'm old stupid guy and I don't understand the improvement it the "mixed" mode represents but now we have already created a second working mode which the user can choose. I guess that it's an improvement in Kdenlive not something bad.
3 - Agree.
4 - Simply WONDERFUL!!!!
5 - I read something about the topic. It's the perfect place.
6 - I see. Before to create the offset the clips are no more grouped. The solution you suggest is interesting. It's easy to use and it's not invasive. What I don't know if it's possible to calculate the offset based on bin membership: if we have more zones of the same clip both audio an video in the timeline, can you tell to the program which is the relation between the different pieces of the same clip?If you want to spend time on it do it by testing one solution otherwise we I'm for opening another phabricator issue about it and we change the priority to this temporarily.

I see. The fact is that now you have no more to ungroup and delete or to mute. You can just choose what you want to use of a clip: the video part, or the audio part or both. If you need just the video you'll insert just the video in a video track. if you need just the audio you'll insert only the audio part in one audio track and
if you need both you'll have the video in a video track and the synced audio in an audio track.
This is the way all application works just because it's easier to manage. You choose what you need from a clip and you insert just it. You have not to mute or to remove the audio from the clip or other actions. Then when you manage the audio on the timeline you can choose which kind of material to insert in each audio track: interviews, speech, sound fx, live recorded materials, laught track, music, etc.

Daily update after the usual fast test:

RE.Re 2: Actually I don't know what could already happen now if you turn on the audio/video split mode and you open those old projects. Because already now you can't insert audio clip on video tracks.
Of course nobody asks for delete the standard classical way Kdenlive worked. My first effort is to try to help to create the new feature by modifying Kdenlive less possible and trying to ask to Jean-Baptiste to code less possible too.
The problem here is that if you work in a mode where you can't put audio on video tracks (and I believe that is correct otherwise we can just have unspecified tracks which can contain every kind of material without the need for separating audio from video) why do you need mute toggle for audio on tracks where you can't put audio on it?
The facts that all professional video editing softwares shares materials in two different gender of tracks is that when you have a very big project (in my life I worked on projects which was longer than 90 mins) you have to know where to watch for finding what you are looking for. If you have a project with 6 audio tracks and 6 video tracks, just for eg, where some audio is in the audio trakcs, other audio is embedded in some video clip in the video tracks, you can get an headache for finding some mistake you unfortunately could make in managing the timeline.
I just guess that we can keep the way Kdenlive has always worked side to a new mode where audio and video are splitted for real.
I'm just trying to help to prepare the future of Kdenlive as one of the best professional video editing program ever which people has to choose not only because it's in GPL license but because it's the best choice they have.

Final considerations about Insert/Overwrite and Extract/Lift features:
This night after I came back home I used the new features just for testing purpose on an interview and I was able to work as fast as by AVID which is considered the faster video editor system. Probably in the time we'll find that there are still some minor tweaks to do on the way Kdenlive works by keyboard (for eg: folder browsing for importing clips) but in general I found it very usable, fast, easy and precise.
I think that we can consider the feature closed and we can move it on the "done" column even if, in my opinion, we can take the 3 days which separate us form the next café for final considerations on it.
For this reason I reflected on some topics I wrote during the work in progress we had and to some I never told about but that came to my mind and I decided to resume them here:

You understood perfectly. If you read the conversation starting from here: https://phabricator.kde.org/T1961#31563 you'll be able to understand why the approach has been modified this way.
Actually I believe that this it's easier than the Shorter/Longer one
Anyway as soon as I'll be able to I'll create some tutorials and documentations about the new features not only for explaining how they work but also for suggesting when and why to use them.

Update: the shorter/longer approach was deleted. It has logical flaws. The toggle button is the new approach.

The fact that the clip ignores its zone and it fills the timeline zone means that the timeline zone bar was active. You can disable/enable it for insert/overwrite purpose by using the G shortcut or the togglr button next to bigger/smaller tracks.
After you disable it Kdeline will insert/overwrite the selected clip zone in the timeline at the edit point position.

Now there is a toggle button which enable/disable timeline zone reference for insert/overwrite actions. When timeline zone is enabled you insert/overwrite by filling its lenght. When it is disabled you put the clip zone on the target tracks starting from the edit line. The export feature always exports the timeline zone no matter if it's enabled or disabled.

Today daily fast test result update:

Great job as usual. :)
These are my notes after my daily fast test.

For being more precise this feature just mutes the audio or the video clip on the timeline.
After you mute a clip it will continue to behave as it is a standard clip on the timeline you just can't playback it.

I don't know if I have to consider this as a bug or just part of the job of improvement of the insert/overwrite feature:
I found that when you are in audio video separate mode if you insert, overwrite or drag an audio clip on the timeline (I done it with a wav and an mp3 files) in a video track we have this results:

After some more deep tests I can say that not always the technique I wrote about here above is working. Some time it stucks Kdenlive.

Yesterday when I was in my short moment of panic I thought about this solution for disabling the timeline zone:
Put the edit line at the latest frame position on the timeline then set the In and Out point on the same frame.
I don't think that is ok to just set the In Out point on the same frame in another position on the timeline because sometimes you need to select just one frame for inserting or overwriting purpose when you work with images sequences.
In AVID there is a removal feature you can have as a button on the timeline preview monitor and on the clip monitor (actually on AVID the 2 monitors button panel can be customized by adding and removing functions) or you can use, same as you can do on Premiere Pro, the G key shortcut.
When you use this command the In/Out points you setted on the timeline are removed and you have no timeline zone selected.
Of course once you have enabled this enable/disablle timeline zone feature we'll need no more the shorter/longer approach: if the timeline zone is selected you'll fill it. If it's not selected you insert/overwrite the selected clip zone on the target tracks starting from the point where the edit line is.

I just forgot one thing:
When the work area is not present on the timeline Insert/Overwrite position references are the target tracks and the edit line.

Update on Insert/Overwite feature:

I just fond that is already possible to import full folders in Kdenlive.
You have just to open the import or the open menus and you'll be able to drag folders inside the project window.
Then you have just to close the folder browser window when you finish.

I don't know if you prefer that I open each time official bugs signalations or if we can continue to use this more informal way .
Let me know.
In the new version I didn't found issues in the insert/overwrite feature.
I was happy to see that the ripple delete has came back.
I found that you enabled the insert mode button in the bottom tools bar. :)

Hi Vincent.
First of all great compliments for the job you are doing on the export widget.
Today I added a custom profile for exporting animated GIF.
I just set as command properties=GIF and it worked.
I can resize with no problem in the advanced tab but I can't change the frame rate of the new exported animated GIF.
Of course I can open a new project with the frame rate I need (for eg 15fps) and the size I'd like to export and the imported clip will match the new parameters (if I refuse to switch the project settings for matching the imported clip)
By using this way everything worked smoothly.

Update after a more deep test:
I see that when no audio track is set as target, Kdenlive inserts anyway the audio in the audio track 1.
When no video track and no audio track are selected everything is ok and Kdenlive puts just an empty space on the unlocked tracks.
When all audio tracks are locked, no audio is inserted anywhere but as we already told this is not a practical situation (it can happen that we want to lock all the audio tracks but this has not to happen just for not insert/overwrite an audio source)

Of course you can.
I'll try to be synthetic and complete.
Of course I guess you already read this:
https://kdenlive.org/node/9458#3point
When we perform an Insert/Overwrite action we have to choose what to insert/overwrite and where to do it.
For answering to the first need we decide that you can insert/overwrite your clip in the clip monitor starting from the IN point you set on the timeline.
For deciding which lenght to insert/overwrite you have these strategies: If you want to Insert/Overwrite a clip zone you selected in the clip monitor, the selected area on the timeline must be longer than the clip zone lenght (you just set the IN point on the timeline and the OUT point can be set at the end of the timeline). If you want to fill a selected area on the timeline, the clip zone selected in the clip monitor must be longer than the area selected on the timeline (you have just to set the IN point of the clip in the clip monitor. Generally if you haven't yet selected any zone of the clip, the OUT point is set on the clip's end frame)
For answering to the second need (where to insert/overwrite) you have these tools: if you want just to insert a video with embedded audio you have just to act as it was before. You have to deselect the audio/video separation feature, then set the target track and lock the tracks you don't want to modify.
If you want to use the audio/video separation feature you have to set both the target tracks for video and audio. So you can do it by moving your track selection bar and press Shift+T shortcut for enabling and disabling the track you want to use as target. If a track is set as target the Led indicator will turn green. If the track is locked the Led will turn Red. If some of the mute options (mute video or mute audio) is turned on the Led will turn yellow.
More, as you asked, by pushing the Shit+Ctrl+L you can "Un/Lock all but current" track.
I hope I was clear. If I was not, just ask me for more details.

I just tested the new version. Everything is great.
The idea of use leds with different colors (I found every one of them - yellow, red and green) it's wonderful.
I guess we can pass to another feature and mark this one as complete though the out of sync reference is still something we have to think on how to implement.
Do you have any suggestions about it?

Great job! I'm impatient to test it.
If we find a way to create a reference signal for broken audio/video sync for clip which were synced, Insert/Extrac/Lift/Overwrite - 3 point edit feature is closed and it works as good as it's on AVID (which is considered the fastest and best video editing software for the keyboard approach ever). Probably it's even better because Kdenlive timeline head is simplier and easier to understand and you can set it before to perform the operations in less moves.
By the way I remarked 2 things that, even if they are not the most urgent, must be considered:
we need a way, when we are browsing folders in the project monitor by the keyboard, to open and close them by a keyboard shortcut.
I guess it's time to finally implement the Insert Mode, as indicated by the disabled button on the bottom tool bar. It could just perform the same action it's performed by the V shortcut.
As soon as the update will be ready, I'll test the new features I'll send you a feedback.

I just forget to say that locked tracks which turn to red is a great idea! :)

After the new fixes my opinions are:
I have to grow the track dimension to 46 otherwise I can't see timeline head icons
Lift/Extract features are working very good. We always just miss a reference when and audio and video sync is broken. If the timeline is well organized generally out of sync are rare but on a very long project it's better to know if something happened where it happened. Maybe after a audio video sync is broken we can just change the color (for eg red) to the clip which were in sync. The frames indication could be useful but if it too complex to code we can just use a different way to remark the out of sync.

Hi everybody. :)
I tested the latest version:

I apologize for not telling my point of view about trashing the ripple delete function when I read that someone proposed it.
If ripple delete feature doesn't create issues in coding other functions I don't think we have to trash it for these reasons:

Today I was setting some shortcuts on Kdenlive trying to figure out which is the best way for working without touching the mouse.
The first thing I though is that we have to privilege the keys for working without mouse and then keys combination for selecting tools we will use by the mouse. (if you use the mouse the shorcut for choosing a tool we'll use by the mouse can be a comfort but probably you'll use to select it the button on the GUI by the mouse itself)
The other thing I found is that we have not the chance to set a key for locking tracks on the timeline.
I must admit that the up an down arrow keys for selecting the target track is an excellent way. If we add a key for turning on and off the lock function for the track the workflow could be already very fast.
Eg: you select by the T key the monitor you want to use. When you are in the clip monitor you can choose a clip from the project by navigating it by up and down arrows and then you set the portion of the clip you want to use by using I and O keys. At that point you press T and you move to the timeline. You set where to perform the action by setting the In and Out points or by moving the edit line, you lock or unlock the tracks you need to lock or unlock by moving from one track to another by using the up and down arrow keys and then you left the track selection on the target track. At that point you perform the insert/overwrite action.

I checked the program after the last update (but I didn't check the way you managed the keyframes) and for me now the Extract feature works as it is supposed to be.
I just think that when we have and audio and video clips which were grouped before to perform the action the frame shift indication (as I shown you for the other programs in the links I pasted in one of my previous post) could be useful. Of course I don't know if this is simple or complicate to code.
Even if this is not the place where to remark it I found a bug in my installation: if I modify a project when I shutdown Kdenlive it doesn't ask me what I want to do and it just closes but it doesn't save the new version of the project.
I hope as always to be useful.
Let me know (if you like) how do you want to manage the Insert/Overwrite features. :)

Ok. My opinion is:
if Kdenlive has to be a professional software we must think the way a professional video editor thinks and to which tools he really needs.
The first thing a professional video editor has to do is to keep his job well organized and he doesn't let things going random, mostly on big and long projects.
So, as he organizes all the bins in the project window, he gives to each track in the timeline a precise function (for this reason I always complain about the audio embedded inside the video clips in the audio tracks and the lack of the audio target track)

Update on Extract Lift:
In my configuration when an audio and a video clip are grouped (I grouped them from the right click menu) if I lock one the track (the video or the audio) which contains one of the grouped element and I perform the Extract action this is applied also on the grouped clip on the locked track. The rest of the track, as it's locked, doesn't change.
If I perform the Lift action everything is ok and I have not this issue.

In my configuration after the update Extract and Lift work perfectly.
No issues even on transitions and undo function restores the timeline exactly as it was before.
Insert and overwrite are still as they were before: they don't act on all tracks but just on the target and you can't select the area on the timeline where to work but you can just do it starting from the point the edit line is placed as it was in older version of the program.
I hope suggestions I wrote yesterday create some discussion about how to arrange this functions to make them improved and more useful.

Just one more thought:
I used the new extract/lift feature for put audio out of sync. I have to say that a reference for this situation is pretty important. of course an indication is useful for tracks which were grouped before you perform the operation and that are gone out of sync after it. Probably a change in color could be enough even if I remember one time when I was in hurry because we were in late in delivery for broadcasting and in one hour lenght project on AVID one audio track went out of sync of around 3500 frames (140 seconds). The time indication was very useful for understanding where the problem was and for fixing it quickly in a couple of actions.

JB compliments for the great and very fast job, as usual. :-)
I found some issue with undo function after I performed both Extract and Lift actions on a big complex project. Actually this project was created by the version 0.9 of Kdenlive so maybe these bugs depend on this.
I'll do more tests asap.

Generally the action you're speaking about is performed by using the ripple trimming functions.
By using this method you can achieve the risult you talked about in just one operation.
Advanced trimming functions is the feature ideas T1953.

A final suggestion:
once all these features will be completely implemented I guess that can be good for usability to put 2 buttons for Insert and Overwrite on the clip monitor and the the ones for Extract and Lift on the timeline monitor even if probably the majority will use the keyboard shortcuts

First of all I'm glad to see how fast JB is implementing ideas we have.
I'll try to be easy, brief and useful.
It's important to divide the action in two groups:

• I apologize for adding a topic already exists.
• I already discussed several times about the name for the new transitions approach (when it'll be implemented) with Harald Albrecht. My point is that we can't change the name "transition" to compositing or blending modes to the current transitions environment soon. This for avoiding confusion in people who has already habit with Kdenlive. The problem exists when people come from other softwares to Kdenlive and this is what I hope mostly. Since late 90's there are no more video editing applications which use more tracks for transitions. Of course you can create crossdissolve and other effects by using more tracks and keyframes but this is not what people are used to. My proposal was "fast transitions" mostly for 2 reasons: to help people who come from other software where it's the standard way to use a single track and to give the idea that Kdenlive has a fast workflow for performing this kind of feature. Actually one of the most important thing about to use transitions on a single track is that you can apply them by using the keyboard by using a simple shortcut hit. Anyway the name is not the main problem. So if the majority prefer single track transition I'm not here for loosing time. What is important is to implement the feature.

For me it's not a problem where to discuss about that topic.
I just apologize for not having see your post before to create mine.

I done the job. Mow I have 18 pgm file 16:9 1920x1080.
I tried to adapt the best I can to the new aspect ratio.
How do you prefer I send the compress folder to you?

These png are just black, grey and white gradients. Probablly an interploation to the new size is enough.